Healthcare Strategy in an Era of Uncertainty: Dennis Jolley on Trust, AI & Leading Through Change

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): Welcome again to the Healthcare Success Podcast. I'm looking forward to interviewing my friend Dennis Jolley, who was one of our original podcast guests back, I think, all the way to 2011. So it's been a while. And back then I think Dennis was with the University of Utah Health. He is today System Vice President of Strategy and Planning for UW Health. Welcome, Dennis. Fun to have you back.

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): Hi. Good to see you, Stewart. Yeah, fun to be back.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): And so Dennis is also currently president of SHSMD, which is a big job, which means Dennis is talking to everybody, probably. And I thought it'd be really fun to bring him back to the podcast today in advance of SHSMD. The conference is coming up in September as we're recording this, to talk about some of the trends he's seeing in healthcare. I'm gonna share my two cents as well, so I think that'll be terrific.

Dennis, every year SHSMD brings together hundreds of health system leaders at different levels and different disciplines from across the country. And we talked earlier about there's a business development track, physician relations, there's marketing, communication, strategy—a whole bunch of different people with different viewpoints. I think that gives you an unusual vantage point. So I'd love to talk about, first today, mostly just broadly about what's going on in healthcare. So welcome. Glad to have you here.

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): Thanks. Happy to be here.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): So Dennis, what's different this year? Like what things are you seeing? I'll throw in my own two cents, but I'd love to hear your two cents first about what you're seeing from your colleagues. What are the things keeping everybody up at night?

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): You know, I do this activity with our board and senior leadership. We call it the Trend Radar. And it's how we kind of make sense of the external environment and what's influencing our system as a whole and our strategy, and what we feel like we have covered or mitigated by initiatives that are in play and what we need to dig into.

And I said to the board just two weeks ago when I presented to them, I have never seen a Trend Radar that's this messy. We've had times in the past where there's a lot going on in the policy realm, or there's, you know, like the financial crisis in 2008 or things like that. But this year, every single segment of the Trend Radar is popping off because there's just a lot of flux right now in healthcare, in the economy as a whole, and globally as a whole. And it's all really impacting our health systems.

I mean, I just got an email just before this call. Another rural hospital just up the road from us a few hours away here in Wisconsin is suspending, closing down its labor and delivery unit. The ones that have happened and the ones that are coming—every health system right now is really, really challenged to navigate a smooth path through all of this.

I believe, though, I really have a lot of confidence in my peers at all these health systems. Everyone I talk to, we're all seeing it, and everybody's seeing it a little bit differently for where they are in their markets. But everybody's identifying the ways that their health system can be smart about planning a path through this and managing our way through it.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): So I think it's unique that you're in strategy. So you're not looking at things just from a communication standpoint or a marketing standpoint, but more strategy, which is really what SHSMD's all about, right? It's not just a marketing conference or communications, it's about strategy and all those things.

Let's talk about that a little bit. What does strategy mean in healthcare at the health system level and SHSMD's mission?

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): Yeah, you know, one of the things I've always liked about SHSMD is that we call all of the groups that are part of SHSMD—strategy, business development, physician relations, marketing, communications—we call them the strategy disciplines because all of them are integral to how a health system develops and executes on its strategy.

All of those people in our health systems and all of these people who are involved in that at SHSMD or at a member hospital are strategists. They might be focused specifically in communications. They might be doing system-level strategy. They might be doing physician relations strategy. But they all have to think strategically about, “am I deploying the resources in the right way to support the most important goals of the organization? And are we getting the return on that investment?”

So that's one of the things I've always liked about SHSMD. For us, all of us are strategists. We come at it from different lenses. And that's really how a lot of people in the disciplines get smart at their work, by talking to people who aren't just doing the same thing as them, but somebody who's doing something different to help solve the same kind of problems.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): So I think I'm gonna stay with this for a minute because it's something we hadn't planned on talking about, but it's fascinating to me.

You're in that unique position of being in strategy where you're trying to integrate all those things, I'm presuming. And hospitals certainly can be siloed, at least based upon the conversations I have with people. So how does a successful leader—whether it's a CEO at a hospital or someone like you whose specific job that is—bring those disciplines together?

Not just at the conference here, but broadly within a health system or a hospital. How do you bring these things together?

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): Yeah, you know, we've always called the SHSMD conference Connections. And it never really occurred to me until you just asked that question that all of us in these disciplines are connectors in one way or another.

I say this all the time. I'm not some evil genius who sits in a cave and comes up with the strategy for the health system. I convene a lot of really smart people and get them in rooms talking to each other, asking questions of each other, and looking at the challenges and the opportunities in front of us. Then together we figure out a way forward.

I think that's what a lot of the people in our disciplines do, whether it's for system-level strategy, service line development, a marketing strategy, whatever. We're working together and creating connections between the different voices in the hospital and breaking down those silos. And that's one of the great values that our members bring to their hospitals and health systems.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): By the way, I love the evil genius metaphor. I use that exact term sometimes. My other joke about this is, Dennis, the kind of executive who has deep thoughts, moves their stapler from one side of their desk to the other, and then more deep thoughts. That's not really what's going to be very effective, right? Deep thoughts by themselves are not going to be super powerful. Nobody's going to listen to you.

And let me ask you this. What I've heard as I've talked to a lot of CEOs and CMOs over the last year on this podcast, and the one thing that I feel like has come up over and over again, is that working together—the ones that are successful at least, the ones that are able to do this—it seems to be the key thing. Because if what is my department is not at the table, well, should it be? And how do you integrate with everybody else? Do you have any comments on that before we move on back to SHSMD?

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): Yeah, and that can be a challenge because sometimes health systems or health system leaders don't think to invite a certain group to the table, right?

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): Right.

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): And that can be challenging if you're in that role. So how do you, as a marketing leader, as a physician liaison leader, as a business development leader, say, "You know what? We can really bring value to this conversation, and let us show you how we can bring value to this conversation because we're going to come in, and we're going to listen to what you have to say and what you're trying to accomplish. And we're going to help think of ways to execute on that differently that you might not have thought about."

Marketing shouldn't just be handed a list of, "Here are the services we're promoting. We want to grow. Go grow them." Marketing needs to understand those services, and they need to be in the room when the strategy is being developed and when they're being talked about.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): So let's go back to the change that's in the market now. Which changes do you think are the ones that are keeping health executives awake at night most?

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): Well, you know, it probably depends a little bit on the kind of health system or hospital that you're in.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): Yeah.

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): And that determines what some of your challenges are. But everybody's dealing with the changes that are coming from a federal policy level with the One Big Beautiful Bill, a lot of that goes into effect here in January.

A lot of health systems—not all, but a lot of health systems—have had some real margin pressures, challenges to meeting the margin that they need for reinvestment. And that could be a combination of loss of revenue, loss of market share, increasing costs, or all of the above.

I mentioned the rural hospital up the road from us. Rural hospitals are really struggling right now because the workforce is really hard. Everybody's short on workforce, but it's really hard to recruit into rural hospitals sometimes. As rural hospitals—I mentioned this one up the street from us. I say "up the street." It's a couple hours away. But that's closing down its labor and delivery unit.

If they're not doing labor and delivery anymore, that's a loss of revenue. That's a loss of connection to the community. And every time they do that, it's one more little whack against their overall ability to deliver their mission.

I think everybody has a different set of challenges, but we're all addressing the same global challenges, which I think are primarily around workforce shortages, increasing policy complexity, and increasing financial pressures. And then beyond that, how do we advance and grow and serve our populations appropriately?

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): Yeah, there's a lot of challenges out there, and we'll talk about some of those in more detail in a moment.

But you mentioned earlier that you have some optimism. When you first said, "We'll get through this," what gives you optimism with all the disruption happening today?

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): You know, healthcare is a field that I think is not entirely unique, but is uniquely positioned because you get incredibly smart people who are incredibly willing to go the extra mile because they believe in what they're doing and they know that what they're doing matters. We're not just selling jeans and T-shirts. No offense to the folks at Gap or whatever.

You can get behind the work that hospitals and health systems do. We're trying to improve the lives of our communities, the communities we live in. And when you bring really smart, passionate people together, you find solutions. It doesn't mean it's going to be easy. It doesn't mean it's going to be fast. But you find solutions if you bring people together like that.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): That's great to know.

So in the past, you and I've talked about—our last podcast was probably a year, year and a half ago—we talked about value-based care. What is marketing's role? We'll talk about marketing for a moment. When you have value-based care on one hand or decreased access on the other, what else would you say? What do you think is important for the marketing people to think about as we move into the next year or two?

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): You know, I look at our marketing team, and I think that they're a really important voice in the conversations around value-based care and access and all of that because they're the ones who understand and have listened to our consumers the most, listened to our patients.

They're the ones saying, "How can we push forward in different ways to engage with the health system? Can we get urgent care over here? Can we get more virtual appointments? Can we do more asynchronous visits?"

They're the ones that are pushing the envelope and really encouraging providers, who tend to think about the way that they were trained in delivering healthcare, to say, "What if you did it this way?"

They're the ones that are pushing the envelope around technology and how we utilize technology and how we can streamline our services through technology, make it easier for people to interact with us, and to get the care that they need when they need it.

So that's one of the things that I find really interesting when I include and talk to the marketing folks.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): So you just led me into my next question, which is AI. And obviously AI is on the topic of just about everybody.

As I get more into using AI on a day-to-day basis, I'm blown away by how much time I'm actually using AI for little tasks and big tasks as well. It's like, well, I could write this really long email explaining something, or I could give a couple notes to ChatGPT, get a draft, and then finish the email. I just saved... writing a good email could take an hour sometimes. If I can save like 50 minutes, I'll do it.

I'm unabashed about it. Even though I look at myself as, for example, in this case, a professional writer—I've made my living through writing for years—it's like, well, I could spend three hours on this. Or as CEO, I could get it done much faster. I think I'll do that, and I can deliver more value to my clients.

People don't really care that I'm spending time writing them an email. They really care about the result. Right?

On that note, on a much bigger level, as AI moves from experimentation to implementation, what conversations are health systems having now that they weren't having a year ago?

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): I mean, everything from, "How can we get an AI system that can read a patient's medical record and summarize it for a physician so that a physician really has a good understanding of that patient's history in a reasonable amount of time?" to just helping people find their way.

I had a medical appointment with our health system here, and I got a text. It asked me ahead of time—I had to give permission, of course—but, "Will you give us access to your phone's location services?" And when I got to the hospital, it was like, "Okay, you're here. Now that you've parked your car, go in, turn left, turn right, go down the hall, we'll be on your left. Push this button when you see the sign, and we'll know that you're here."

That kind of navigation support for patients can be incredibly helpful when people are coming to a place they don't know.

I talked to a company recently that has an AI that's an AI team member. It can call and say, "Hey Dennis, I noticed that you're nearing the end of your prescription. Can I get the refill mailed out to you? And don't forget you need to get your labs done. Can I make an appointment for you?" It's doing that kind of work that maybe a nurse would have had to do, or maybe nobody was doing in the past, to help the patient remember and keep on top of things and navigate their own care.

All of those pieces and parts—there's a million different things out there that AI is doing. There's a lot of work involved in utilizing it correctly. Our marketing team is having to rebuild our website from the ground up to help it navigate and work with AI systems. But I think there's a lot of opportunity there. It's opportunity that will help us to be more efficient, more user-friendly, and easier to navigate for patients.

Because healthcare is hard. Healthcare is hard to navigate, especially in the United States. Honestly, if I had an AI that would help me navigate my own insurance and billing and, when you get an explanation of benefits, what exactly you need to do with it—I mean, a lot of people struggle with that. It'd be nice if something explained it, I think.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): So I think that's so funny because literally this morning—I haven't had a chance to do it—my daughter just got a new job, and the insurance plans... It's like, here again. I could go through and find all these benefits, but let's see what AI says to at least narrow the decisions down.

I think it's interesting. By the way, you and I are in the business, right? We understand what these things are. We know what a POS is or an HMO or PPO or whatever. We know what these things are, but we're still like, my God, we have thirteen different HMOs. Which one? And how do I weigh the benefit? And how acute is she? It's really complicated. And we understand what an HMO is. So imagine people who do not.

I think it's also intriguing, the idea that I never thought about wayfinding and how powerful that would be with AI like that. We're still figuring out how it can even be used, right? Rather than optimize it. But somebody in wayfinding thought, "How could I do this?" And all of a sudden we have an answer that I would never have thought of. I love that.

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): Yeah. Somebody out there was like, "You have Wi-Fi hotspots all throughout your hospital. We can use those to help people not get lost in your hospital."

We're a big academic university hospital in the middle of a large rural population. These people are coming in for whom our building is just a total nightmare. I mean, it's a nightmare, and even if you've worked here for four years...

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): I love that. That's amazing.

So when hospitals and health systems are talking about growth today, what does that actually mean? Where is the growth coming from? Is it service lines, getting physicians aligned, access, digital marketing, market share? What are the things? It's not just about getting patients, typically, though that still matters.

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): It is, but I think for most health systems it's about getting the right patients to the right place at the right time.

Every health system has its own specific areas where it is working to grow a service based on community need and their unique capabilities. But what it comes down to is, how are we delivering the value to the patient? How are we helping patients navigate care and get the care that they need when they need it? And especially preventive care, to keep them from needing the significant care later on.

Of course, if you've got a bunch of great orthopedists, you're doing hips and knees and all of that stuff, and you want to grow that market share because more and more you need the revenue from those services that do generate some additional margin to help underwrite some of the services that you need to provide that are the right thing to do and the right thing for your community, but maybe they don't reimburse as well.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): I think that's especially, at an academic medical center, such a big deal because most academic medical centers look at themselves as the caregiver for the whole community. It's a broader mission than just staying in business.

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): And not just academics. I know a lot of people at community hospitals and rural hospitals who are literally the access point for that community. They really are serious about it, and they want to do it well. A lot of them do it incredibly well.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): Yeah, and it's funny because one of the challenges we have right now is public attitudes. They may not even know the hospital views itself and is going to extraordinary lengths to try to take care of and protect its population.

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): Yeah. That trust deficit that has developed is really concerning. That's one of the trends out there that makes me nervous because I don't know how to fix it, honestly.

A lot of our public institutions have lost ground in terms of public trust. Healthcare has lost ground. We've lost ground less so than a lot of other public institutions, but how do we rebuild that trust with the community, with the patients, is really important.

I think that part of that is how our members in SHSMD communicate and talk to, plan for, and engage with the communities that they serve. That helps regenerate some of that trust when we're really transparent and open and invested in the communities.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): Yeah, I think trust is a topic that's really, really on everybody's mind these days, for sure. When we talk about trust, patients are increasingly comparing healthcare experiences to every other industry, which, as we just described, is hard but necessary. How are health systems responding today?

And by the way, I just have to say this before you answer. I'm having the most frustrating experience right now with my derm. They don't have access through the portal. Every time I leave a message for a script, they put the wrong one into the pharmacy. I call them to correct them, and they're closed, and they don't accept messages during business hours.

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): And that is the healthcare nightmare, right? That is the healthcare nightmare.

I think that the best systems are saying, "How do we eliminate the hassle?" I mean, I can book a flight to anywhere in the world on my phone. If the flight gets delayed, I can figure it out myself usually without having to talk to anybody and all of that. Not that talking to people is a bad thing.

Do you want to have to make three phone calls and send an email and send a MyChart message and not get answered and all of that? So I think a lot of health systems are saying, "Where can we reduce the friction? Where can we make it easy for people?"

You see people like I mentioned, there's that AI team member that calls people or texts people, depending on their preference, and says, "Your prescription's going to be up for renewal. Do you need to have your labs? I can get your prescription reordered and put it in the mail for you," or all of those kinds of things that people understandably come to expect.

They shouldn't have to necessarily get in their car and drive to a pharmacy to pick up their prescription. We know that it can be sent to them. We can remind people easily, just like you get a reminder from your airline: "You have a flight coming up, and here's your baggage requirements." Well, you have an appointment coming up. Remember, it's a fasting blood test. That's why we scheduled it at 8:00 a.m. Don't get up and have a donut before you come, whatever it is.

How do we make it easier for people to interact with their healthcare provider? Because what they really want is to be able to have that human connection with their physician when they need it. And the rest of the time, they want to be able to just live their life and get on with it. So how can we help them with that?

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): Great point. I'm just thinking about you guys being in a rural area. I can see somebody driving in for two hours, and then they have to see you, and your blood test doesn't work. That's not a great conversation to have.

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All sorts of fun.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): Yeah. So I have to go back to your hospital dropping labor and delivery. That's sad for the community, and strategically that's the entranceway to most hospitals if you're trying to build that long-term relationship.

We were working with another name-brand hospital that was in Northern California that gave up labor and delivery just because it was so uneconomical. Even though they're part of a big system, it was so difficult with malpractice and all the different things.

Any solutions to that? I don't know about labor and delivery directly, but just these kinds of services that really matter to a community. When you walk away from them, it's just really tough economically, from a community support standpoint, all those things.

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): Yeah. You know, I think as a nation we're going to have to have conversations about that. There are some opportunities, some bright spots out there. There are the Rural Health Transformation dollars, which are federal funds specifically for rural hospitals to help them work in partnership with either industry or larger health systems to reinforce and shore up the rural hospitals.

We're working with a lot of rural hospitals on eICU and things like that so that they can keep patients at a higher level of care and keep those patients in the community by having an ICU physician and team 24/7 right there helping them watch the patient.

Some places are doing more where they're joint recruiting. I know academic systems—and we do this—where we joint recruit. When we recruit, we say, "We're recruiting you to UW Health, but you are going to spend 40% of your time in this other town an hour away because that hospital doing well is important to us, and it's important to that community. It's important to the state." I think there are lots of different kinds of ways that health systems are trying to support this.

We have the challenge right now that the pandemic and some of the trust issues that we've talked about mean not as many people are going into some of the health professions. That's a challenge.

I think we have 12 different apprenticeship programs that we run in conjunction with community colleges across the state of Wisconsin. We're talking to kids in high school and in junior high school to say, "Consider the health professions." We're helping kids that want to get into rad tech or surg tech or pharmacy tech roles.

Then they can get in, and if they like it, we'll support them to go get a nursing degree or go back to school and get a degree that helps them advance their career further. A lot of health systems are doing things like that as well because one of the biggest crunches is that workforce shortage.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): That totally makes sense. So how have expectations from CEOs changed? What do they expect from their marketing and strategy leaders today that maybe weren't issues five years ago?

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): I think the CEOs I talk to are saying, "Come with solutions. Come with ideas. Come to the table." Don't come to the table and just say, "I need money to do X." Come to the table with a solution to a problem I'm dealing with.

Know what your health system is working on. Know what your CEO is working on and what's important to your CEO. Then come with solutions to help them resolve that because all of the disciplines that we're talking about—we're solution providers.

You're a solution provider. I'm a solution provider of a different type. Somebody in marketing is a solution provider of a different type. We can help. We're here to help. We make things better. We help systems get things done.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): So in a much smaller way than an academic medical center, I can say, as CEO of my company, I want the exact same thing, Dennis. Come to me with solutions.

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): Come to me with something that helps. Don't come to me with something that is a problem.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): If you can't figure it out, why are you looking at me? This is your job. At least have an idea, right?

Are there any planes that are really... we're not seeing? Maybe it's sort of a blind spot that healthcare leaders might be having. There's one assumption here, but actually it's wrong. Or anything that is a critical lever before we wrap up here?

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): You know, I've been to meetings, and I've talked to a lot of healthcare leaders—CEOs, strategy leaders, marketing leaders, finance leaders, physician leaders.

I think, as a whole, we've got really smart people in this industry. Everybody sees the challenges from their unique perspective, but I think most people have a pretty good handle on it. I don't think there are people out there with any kind of wild notions that everything's just fine and dandy and we'll all be okay. I think everybody knows that we have challenges.

The question is understanding, for your health system, for your market, for the patients you care for, what are the challenges that matter most? And how can you work with your system to figure out how you can continue to have significant positive impact so that you continue to be relevant and sustainable for that community and for the people who need your care?

People are figuring that out. People are listening. They're listening to their communities, listening to their patients, and they're doing things differently, and it's working.

But it's going to take a lot of work, and it's not going to be a simple fix. We've got some real challenges out there, and not all of them are in our control, so we just have to figure out how to navigate them.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): So you mentioned earlier you're doing a new website, and our agency is also spending a lot of time with clients on what is AI-driven SEO.

The good news is, when I tell people, "Well, the bad news is your website's completely out of date for the AI age. The good news is somebody else's is too. Everybody else's."

For academic medical centers in particular who want to get their content seen and perceived and be leaders, is there anything special about what you guys are doing that's working or not working? Because it's really pretty universal. Everybody's trying to figure out how to do this.

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): You know, I'm not even the expert to talk on that. I know exactly who I would have you talk to if you wanted to know exactly what we're doing to figure out that problem, because we have some really good people on it. I don't know the details of what we're doing, to be honest. But I know they're on it, and I know I trust them.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): That's great. That's important.

So the last question I was going to ask you about is you've been involved with SHSMD for many years, and now you're its president. Well, not many, many. We're both 10 years into the business.

When you look back at the journey, how has that leadership conversation evolved? In other words, what's really changed completely, and what's remained surprisingly constant?

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): We're doing the SHSMD strategic plan right now, and we're going to start talking about it here at the conference coming up because we've been talking about it a lot.

I think, just like the conversation in our health systems has shifted to how are we providing value to our patients and our communities, that's really the conversation we're having internally. How are we providing value to our members? How are we providing value to the health systems that employ our members?

I think that's one big shift. I don't think when we first started 10 years ago or so-ish, the conversation wasn't always about value, right?

Whether you're talking about growth, whether you're talking about market share, how are you providing value to the people in your community is the underlying message that I hear a lot from health systems now. I think that's a good thing. I think it's a really good thing.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): Yeah, that totally makes sense. The word you used earlier too—trust—is important in ways that I don't remember being so critical as it is today because it was presumed. It was a non-issue before. Of course people trust healthcare.

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): Right. Exactly.

“I'm a doctor. Of course you trust me, right?”

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): Yeah. So any last comments as we're wrapping up here?

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): No. I look forward to everyone who's going to join us in Baltimore, the 27th through the 29th of September. It'll be a great time.

I think my very first SHSMD conference was actually in Baltimore. So this is kind of a homecoming, I guess, in some ways.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): Silly. You beat me to my close. Where is it and when is it? You just...

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): Yeah, yeah. Baltimore, September 27th through 29th.

Come get some crab cakes and some really great learning experiences and talk to some colleagues and cross-pollinate.

You and I were talking about the different tracks, but nobody's locked into a track. So if you're a marketing person, but you really want to better understand how service line directors or strategy folks are talking about something, go to a few strategy sessions. Get that perspective, then take it back to your health system and continue to provide your value.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): SHSMD is one of the leading conferences, of course. It's funny because that's exactly it. I think that's the biggest thing when I attend, bringing that context back to my team because they're all process experts in their own little thing, but it's really hard to see the bigger picture and understand what's going on with access, what's going on with population health, what's going on with managed care, what's going on with all these things that impact...

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): Yeah. And if you can't make it to the conference, there will be summaries out there. We do a lot of online courses and chat sessions. I think we call them fireside chats now. I don't remember exactly what we call them. I'll probably be in trouble for that. People can get together and say, "We're going to have a marketing fireside chat. How do you handle this situation?" People can come and talk through ideas.

There's real value to talking to somebody who's not in the same bubble as you about a problem that you might both have.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success): That's terrific. Well, I'll end with that. Thank you, Dennis, for joining me.

Dennis Jolley (DW Health): Thank you, Stewart.

Always great to see you. Bye.