Developing High-Impact Sales Leadership in Healthcare

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

Stewart Gandolf 00:15

Hello again. Everybody good to see you. Nice to see you again, Chris, and welcome to our podcast. Today. My guest is Chris Jennings, the CEO of Chris Jennings Group. I've known Chris for I don't know couple of decades, probably more than that. Maybe so. Yeah. So I'm covering a topic today here that I almost never cover for our podcast and blog, which is sales and sales, is such an interesting concept in the world of healthcare, and as our readers and subscribers and listeners know probably, that we work with all kinds of different healthcare entities, we do a lot with providers like multi location providers. Device Pharma, SAAS, you know, a whole health plans, a whole wide variety of different businesses. Some of those businesses have a B2B component. Really, primarily, they're going out selling to doctors. They're selling to hospitals. Others are high end B2C, so, for example, plastic surgery or you know, addiction, infertility, bariatric surgery. So, this, you know, I can't cover everything we know about sales today in the next 25-30 min with Chris. But I thought today, you know, Chris has been somebody I've known forever, and we often share war stories. And today, I thought, would be really fun to talk to Chris about is the sales leadership sales management

of you know. How do you get your sales better? And I think that's a pretty common issue. And there's so many concerns and confusions about

the word “sales” in healthcare, I mean the very word, you know. Send shutters a lot of people's backs. So anyway, Chris, welcome and I guess. Why don't you do me a favor and just spend a 30-second message on what it is you guys do? That would be context.

Chris Jennings 02:11

Sure. Sure, thanks, Stewart, and appreciate you having me. And so, we work with sales organizations and leadership teams to help improve sales process in an organization

whether that comes down to the individual producers or salespeople themselves, or whoever it is really that interacts with the customer. Because sales healthcare and most industries, frankly, doesn't occur just between a salesperson and a buyer. It occurs between every interaction that you're having with your customer.

So there's a thoughtfulness that we try to bring to every organization about. How do they engage with customers all the way from finding enough of them to have conversations with to the securing beyond the level of interest booking more appointments, if need be, and then conversion ratios and holding on to margins, and we coach through a variety of coaching, consulting, training and development projects

and ultimately try to help every organization build a sales playbook that they operate off of and Yeah, that's generally what we're doing.

Stewart Gandolf 03:28


So, I think that's really the important thing. When I first met Chris was years ago earlier in my career, and I like to think I was already pretty good. I've never looked at myself as just a 100% salesperson, but there's a component of sales in pretty much every job.

And when I met Chris I think I was already a pretty good salesperson. But after I did some of the techniques I learned from Chris. It got a little scary. It was so powerful. It was like, we just got fun. I would change things just to change it to make it more difficult to see if I could still sell it. And I would. And so, I always thought, you know, like a lot. I know a lot of our audience probably aren't big on sales, but to me.

you know, sales is—good sales—is communication right? And being able to communicate effectively, and so much of what I learned from Chris in the earlier years was just really

effective communication. So, Chris, you do a ton of visage talks. And I know you talk about this

issue a lot. So, I wanna put you on a spot like as we sort of plan through our podcast today, like, what's what's kind of some of the most important things when it comes to sales leadership or like.

Let's say, you know, you're lets you know whether you're in the device business. And your salespeople aren't selling anything, or you're, you know, in a practice. And you're not converting patients, or you're, you know, like, whatever the situation may be, what are some of the things that really matter? As you start thinking about leadership, like, what are some of the key levers that you can pull, and you should be thinking about.

Chris Jennings 04:53

Yeah, I mean the main thing as a from a sales leadership perspective is, how are you developing your team? Let's assume that not every player on your team is Michael Jordan. That would be naturally a gifted player, and even a Michael Jordan is gonna work harder, being a great player. So, what is your team development strategy? How often do you work with your team? Are you coaching your team? Do you have a playbook.

What's your protocol for field rides and monitoring the amount of go live activity, which is how much time your people actually spend talking to customers and prospects which, as an underlying cause of most sales and efficiency is, there's just not enough conversations being had between customers and prospects, or excuse me between prospects and your whoever's representing you, so do you have that structure in place to help people build a pipeline and have an ample opportunity to achieve their goals.

And unfortunately for most sales leaders, I'd say most sales leaders I met were good salespeople, but being a great salesperson certainly doesn't make you a great sales leader, and you gotta shift gears and actually care more about the success of your team than you do about your own personal success.

Most great salespeople care more about their own personal success. So they become very focused. Most great sales leaders are more interested in helping their team develop, achieve their goals more so than they are. them achieving their own goals. And therefore they have great development programs and ways to take a B player and turn them into an A player. And I think everybody's goal should be. Hey, let's pick up one letter grade with whoever's on my team. If I have C players, let's turn them into B's. If I got B's, let's make them A's. If I have A's let's make A+’s. Usually people don't grow by more than a letter grade, usually. But unless you're extraordinarily motivated. And you did bring some basic skills with you. So.

Stewart Gandolf 07:00

That's really intriguing. So, I you just brought up something that you know I've thought about a lot lately, and it's this mythology of the great salesperson and like, if I could only hire the right salesperson, then I'd be happy. Yeah, exactly. And like, so you spend, you know, 20 years trying to find that one sales guy or sales gal, and like 20 years just went by like that wasn't very effective.

So, and you know, like our mutual friend. Unfortunately departed. Steven used to talk about, you know, like the difficulty of being a good manager like, you know, Michael Jordan, going back to that idea. And Michael, like, you know, says, Okay, you stand at half court, you. You take the ball like this. You're like this, and then it goes in that, and then, when the sales rep can't do that, just get flummoxed. It's like what I just told you what's hard about, so that mythology is a big is a big challenge for sure. So, as you think about that, so I think that's the first takeaway is like, stop thinking about stars, start thinking about building a team. Is that true?

Chris Jennings 08:10

Yeah, I mean. So let you know, since you brought up Steven, Steven was an A player at his, with his own skills, right. And I'd say, probably where he would struggle the most is to bring in people and then develop them, which most sales leaders do. And usually what I find my experience is. Look, of course you want to continue to recruit the best people out there. But let's just go on the assumption that most of your players are going to be B players. They're not A+ superstars. Not everybody is Michael Jordan, right? And but you're a good, solid NBA player. The question is, can I take you from that good, solid NBA player to somebody that helps us win a championship? And do I have a system like, you know. If we go back to Bill Jackson says we're talking to Michael Jordan.

Bill Jackson ran the triangle offense, and you know he had a playbook that he operated out of, and everybody fit into that triangle offense, and he would try to develop those skills to be able to better increase. Not only the individual skill sets, but the improvement of the team. And you have to be thinking about it in those terms like, What is your triangle offense? Have you developed that?

And do you have a way of helping people get better with the skill sets necessary inside of that offense, and great leaders are very involved in employee and team development. Right? And I find that across organizations.

Stewart Gandolf 09:46

So, I brought Chris's team into work with our team recently. To, you know. Again, make sure we have a championship and everything we do right, everything we want to have the best marketing, the best operations, the best, you know. Branding,

sales if nothing else. It should be and like, you know again, if you have the star theory, it's just sort of up to them to figure it out. And like one of the things that Chris's associate Anthony told me and reminded me, which I thought was brilliant. It's like how many great organizations known for good selling, let everybody do whatever they want to do. Yeah, that's the way. Isn't that way. A lot of sales managers do it. Just everybody kind of does their own thing and figure it out.

Chris Jennings 10:29

Yeah, I mean, look, there's not a lot of good development for sales. So, you know, one of my personal goals is to get our material from the couple of books that we have out and the online programs that we're building into the university system because very few people majored in sales in college.

I don't know very many people that have a master's degree in sales leadership. And so, unless you worked for a very large, very sales focused organization that developed those skills for you. And you work in small to medium sized businesses those sales managers are hoping that their team does better. But it's a lot of hope. And they're not really focused on developing, which you know good for us. We have a business because

sales leaders and other leaders offload some of that development to us, because we do it all the time. And the average leader is only developing salespeople, you know, in small minute bits. So, we're probably gonna have a better chance of doing that. But the main thing is for leadership. You gotta think development. How do I? Whoever comes to me that works on my team? How do I make them better?

And if you're and if you're thoughtful about that, and you focus your energies on that, that's what I've seen the organizations that have doubled and doubled again, and not all the great success. They're very focused on team development.

Stewart Gandolf 12:08

So, one of the things that, philosophically, we talk about a lot together, you know, socially as well as professionally, Chris, is the idea that you know, everyone wants to measure sales outcomes, which, of course, you do to measure how well your salesperson is doing. But one of the things you guys focus in on is the activity. Can you describe that a little bit? And why that matters? Because you could argue like, well, I don't care what they do as long as they bring in deals like.

Chris Jennings 12:33

Yeah, well, so great question. I love it. So, there's a younger sales guy, that I know personally that, you know got permission through my one of my kids to talk give me a call, or whatever, and I was happy to talk to him.

This guy's name is Jack. Jack is starting out in a new career. One of the things that we talked about was, you know, he said. Hey, I was. I was gonna start, you know, reaching out to certain people, but I was afraid that I might not be polished enough yet in my approach. I'm like Jack. you just start reaching out to people, man, nobody's gonna remember, like the a bad call they had with you a week from now, even probably a day from a day later—you might, but you just need to get in the game and start going out on practice calls. Start practicing fine tuning your conversations, because

for most people what ends up happening—they never have enough activity; they never have enough conversations. So, the very few number of conversations they do. They're trying so hard not to screw them up, that they inadvertently screw them up because they're trying too hard.

In fact, the analogy I gave the other day, so I don't know if you had anybody from your team on our elevate session. But I said, the main thing you have to do in your pregame prep before going into a sales call is just, you know. Get your expectations low and not try so hard. Most salespeople come across like an eager puppy like slobbering all over their prospective customers, dropping a wet ball on their lap, asking them to throw it back to them. And what I said is what you need to do is you got to be like the old cool dog that's lying in the sun, that he would he play catch with you if you wanted to throw it to him, and if he didn't, if he didn't mind getting out of the sun, but it's going to take a little encouragement from him. Don't be that slobbering puppy and 90% of all salespeople come across like slobbering puppies, and they scare away their customers, you know.

Stewart Gandolf 14:40

I love that metaphor. So that was actually one of the things I loved about when I first met Chris, because I met Chris after years of doing seminars and leading workshops, and, you know, working with, you know, thousands of different medical professionals. And you know I never thought, as I said, thought of myself as a salesperson. I was just really good at consulting. And I think that's really worked for my personality because I was like always I like being the expert, and I never was the slobbering puppy. That's just something I can't bring myself to do, Chris. Chris, don't make me be a slobbering puppy. I hate that idea with my very soul.

Chris Jennings 15:22

Yeah. Good.

Stewart Gandolf 15:23

So I think that's actually part of the reason why everybody in healthcare hates sales because they associate sales with the slobbering puppy. And you know, I used to back when I worked with individual doctors back years ago. It's like I became a doctor, so I don't have to be a salesperson, which I understand right? So, nobody wants to be a slobbering puppy. Nobody wants to be. That should be the cover of your next book. Just a slobbering puppy. No.

Chris Jennings 15:49

No kidding.

Well, you know, when you were talking about healthcare sales, like, you know, when you talk to. If you if you're in a professional setting, let's say, plastic surgery office, etc., where there's a sales component to, you know the physician and the and the in the office staff.

And everybody's trying so hard not to be the slobbering puppy that they turn into some sort of convoluted version of who they really are. When really what I would say. My, my general rule of thumb is just tell people the truth, and if the truth is, they have issues that you are good at addressing.

and it costs some money. Then just tell them what those issues are that you're good at addressing, and don't get too in your head about it. I think. Unfortunately.

you know, being a good conversationalist is really about being authentic and being in the moment, and so many people when it, who are, let's say you know. Let's say you're a physician or your front office staff, and you might be great. Might know your business inside and out. You might know your field, inside and out.

but when you want something from the person you're talking to, and that creeps into your head. It squirrels the conversation that you're having, and all of a sudden you become less of your authentic self, and you become that convoluted version of yourself, and that's and that's unfortunate.

Stewart Gandolf 17:18

Just have to jump in on that, the, you know, like back when you and I first met each other. That wasn't like a catch word. But today it is authenticity and marketing authenticity everywhere. Most people don't think about sales being authentic, right? They talk about in the marketing stuff all the time be authentic. Be is an authentic, you know. Treat your patient or your consumer in authentic matter.

Somebody forgot to tell the sales team. I don't know why, but they seem to have forgotten, and I think that's a big part, and I'll just throw this out there. A big part of why, I like the methods that you know we've worked on together, and I learned from you years ago, was the idea that you know, as a you know, I'm a professional. I'm equal in this. I think that's a big part of the slobbering puppy thing. Well, if you're acting like a slobbering puppy, they're gonna treat you like a slobbering puppy like. Is it possible, Chris, to be an equal and not be, you know, a pushy, stereotypical salesperson, and not being a slobbering puppy like how do you do that?

Chris Jennings 18:18

Well, so there's if there's two ways you get there. Maybe there's three number one going back to your original question around. This is, you get into your activity. So, if you're asking for referrals, or you're doing webinars, or whatever you're, you know you're making calls. Whatever your activity is you really get in, and your consistently do the activities that you're you've committed to doing.

And if you're doing that, you know, you're going to get enough opportunities that you don't have to convert every call.

Because, unfortunately, what happens is when people have too little in their pipeline. The need to convert every single interaction goes way up, and you want to have an abundance of opportunity. So, if some happen and some don't, it's just not a big deal.

So that would be number one. And I would say, number two is, you have to be a student of the game, right? You have to be thoughtful about the interactions that you're having. You have to be self-reflective. And maybe you know, through recording your calls, or by you know, in a scrimmage or a walkthrough, or a role play to like get just work on building a consciousness of the kinds of conversations that you want to have. And I'll say the last thing. third thing is—you gotta be open to getting some coaching. You gotta be teachable. And as part of being a student of the game you got to get feedback from there has to. In my opinion, there has to be somebody in your professional life, or and/or your personal life that you respect, that will tell you the truth about how you interact with people. Because if we're not, if there's things that we're doing that are annoying to our customers, I would say, when do you want to find that out right? And you know, hopefully, you want to find that out as soon as possible. And you've got somebody around you that you respect, that has a good eye and a good ear for what should be happening on a sales call, and give you that feedback.

Stewart Gandolf 20:24

That's awesome. So, you know, it's funny, too. The one of the things that you know I've talked about over the years is the whole idea of—and I got this actually from Tony Robbins before I met you years and years ago, and whether it was audio book or speaking or wherever I got it from. But he talked a lot about people do a lot more to avoid pain than to get pleasure, and I said again. They do a lot more to avoid pain than get pleasure. Pleasure is theoretical. I'm going to give $100, and tomorrow you probably will get $500.

Okay, you know. But I just lost, you know. I just had a call yesterday, Chris, that I estimate the opportunity cost this client somebody I've known for years has never pulled the trigger called us. And I'm estimating they have a 20 million dollar problem based on what they just told me on that phone call.

So, like that's when they call me. They thought highly of us forever. They think we're great. It was never paying now. They have a 20 million dollar problem. It's paying. So talk about that. Like, you know, the motivation. And how important is that to the sales process.

Chris Jennings 21:31

Yeah, it's critical. So, the acronym, though, that we look at is HEARD right? How many hours have you lost pursuing something that didn't happen.

What emotions did you experience? Because you did not because of the of the problem that you're experiencing? What adversity have you faced now because of this problem. And what headwinds are you running into? What relationships have been harmed

as a result of living in that problem? And the final piece of that is what dollars have you lost, and what does it cost you financially to continue to live in that problem?

And until you weigh out the HEARD ratio. It's and when you take stock of that, because people naturally don't want to concentrate on their problems. Otherwise, that's called depression. If all you do is think about your problems right? And so sometimes, as a a healthy helpful salesperson, you are a mirror to your customers about the realities of their situation. And you are not afraid to look at the realities of the situation. You're not afraid to ask them how many dollars it's costing them. I talked to somebody yesterday.

and in coaching the call I said, Well, what kind of money is this? Are they making at that company goes. I've never asked them like, why, why wouldn't you ask them that? I mean, that's it's completely germane to the issue. Why would you know what are we doing if we're not helping our customers make more money? But so many people walk around with this fear in their head like, oh, I can't really ask them that, or that's not appropriate. So, they dance around the real issue. And again, I'm saying.

grow in your confidence that you have the ability to ask any question of any person if you ask it the right way.

and if you're not asking it because you're afraid, then maybe you gotta get some, get some advice on how to ask that question in a way that would land. Well. So.

Stewart Gandolf 23:41

You know. Another thing I think going back to the open communication part is I think we I got this line from you, but I've always loved it. It's like, Wait, I'm allowed to do that. It's like, if you feel it, say it.

Chris Jennings 23:53

Yeah.

Stewart Gandolf 23:56

Yeah, give me an example how that might look right?

Chris Jennings 24:01

So, the rule is, if you feel it, say it, say it from how it impacts the customer, not how it impacts you and say it nicely.

Right? So if you feel it, say it, say it from how it impacts them, not you, and say it nicely right.

Stewart Gandolf 24:20

So. So let's pretend I feel like I can tell this meeting is going nowhere, and they're being look at their phone or like that just not looking good. What.

Chris Jennings 24:29

Yeah. What I what I might say in that case is, I might say, Hey, I listen. I know you. You know you have tons of options of what you can do to grow your business. Working with us in a marketing, consulting capacity to make sure the spends going the right way, May. I'm not sure that that's a high enough priority for you, or having a big enough impact for you to make a change from what you're already doing, or am I misreading this somehow?

Right? So, I've said that with a very neutral tonality. But I'm really getting that. I'm putting the mirror right up to his face and say, like, this is important to you or not. But I said it nicely, and I said it from how it impacts them because maybe they do have competing priorities which most everybody does. Everybody's got competing priorities.

The sales challenge is to figure out, can we put a spotlight on the issue that we're talking about? And is it important enough for them to take some action with us or not?

Stewart Gandolf 25:29

It's really funny. You say, that I reached out from a private equity. I saw something in the trades that we follow, and I noticed somebody was out there, and it's like, I've never met this guy, and I don't usually do. You know. I'm CEO. I'm pretty busy. I don't go reaching out to people. But this particular case study I read about was such an interesting guy that it's like I just, I sent a LinkedIn Byte saying, hey? Saw a note about you in the trades. I'm guessing. Marketing is not super important to you right now. You've got a lot to figure out over there, but when you do we should talk, and I got the nicest, warmest reply, accepted my thing, and I think it's important to remember that. You know it's like.

First of all, I'm not selling. I'm running my own company. I've got other stuff to do. But secondly, I was just a human. I. You know he is. He just they just merged a bunch of businesses he's got other stuff to worry about, and I think that reality shocks people when you don't go straight to assuming like, can you buy?—like the slobbering puppy.

Chris Jennings 26:23

Well, I also think you know, in our society today, unfortunately, what's happened is that because people have become so device-centric and relied on electronic communication versus live communication.

That they've developed a whole host of head trash that that filters people's desire to even reach out to somebody.

and they're like afraid to bother another human being versus taking an active interest. So, if I pick up the phone and I call you Stewart, it's because I am. I'm interested in your life. I am curious about what's happening to you personally and to you professionally, and that is the reason why I pick up the phone, right? I don't pick up the phone personally or in order. I recommend, because I need to get another purchase order from somebody. But I take an active interest in everybody, and I'll and I'll say this, for from a coaching perspective.

I always say, if you're talking to customers or prospects any differently than you talk to your better friends, or your family members, or your peers, and your tonality or your mannerisms are different. Then something's wrong, right, and maybe you're leaning towards the slobbering puppy because you want something. You want them to pick up the ball and throw it to you, or whatever but I everybody can tell in your tonality. Do you want something from me or not?

And unfortunately, you know, it's like I don't play poker, but I every now and then I'll stumble across a bunch of guys playing poker, and they got hats and big glasses because they don't want that they don't want their opponents to see what's going on for them. And look, your customers are. They're making judgments about how you're approaching them all the time, and your approach is either making them feel more comfortable and open. And what? And invited to talk to you, or it's causing them to close down and be suspicious and be less open to your suggestions or your approach. So.

Stewart Gandolf 28:41

There's so much for talking about today, I think, is so valuable. Like, right there. Like, yeah, it's like they're going to be, repelled or attracted, based on how you're being. And also, like I mean, the slobbering puppy is pretty adorable, but I don't buy anything from slobbering puppy.

Chris Jennings 28:59

Yeah, they're cute. They're cute for a little bit. But sooner or later, like, Hey, I have to wear these pants today, you know. So.

Stewart Gandolf 29:06

And I said, soon as they become annoying, you don't want to ever see the slobbering puppy again, and that's where you get an unlimited pass to their voicemail. So let's talk about healthcare a little. We've covered a lot of bases today. I was

Chris and I've been knowing each other for a long time. We come into this thing with no agenda, but I'm pretty sure we have some a lot of valuable stuff for our listeners today. Let's talk about healthcare to switch gears because we could talk all day about sales theory, and you know how to communicate and be authentic, and all those things, and but like, you know, what have you noticed in healthcare? I don't know if you have any met examples or any like truth-isms like talk about healthcare, because I know again it's so broad. It's like B2B, B2C. Whatever what have you learned.

Chris Jennings 29:47

So I'll do. I'll do a little B2B for some trends, and B2C, and then I'll give you some trends that I see in B2B in in the B2C environments. You know, most of the people who enter in a healthcare practitioner or service role of whatever kind they're you know, they're attracted to the industry because of they like caring for people. They're interested in patient care they're interested in improving somebody's health.

They're not interested in selling stuff in their mind. So, the biggest hurdle that the whole B2C community has to like has to overcome is reconciling that telling people the truth about their healthcare needs is not selling. It's helping your customers and so.

And then the other issue is, if you're leading an organization like that. So, there's a team we started talking to just recently, and they have some great devices. They got great opportunities for their patients. But maybe 10% of the staff is bought into—We should bring these up with our patients.

So our theme around special teams, players which are non-salespeople that have to communicate with customers and offer ideas, suggestions, opportunities. Whether that's booking an appointment, or offering an upgrade, or an add on, or whatever it might be, or booking them for a service.

Though figuring out how to get this. Make it easy for your special team’s players to do so. What you want is a very limited task list of requests that your special teams group can communicate with great authenticity to your to the patients that you guys serve.

And if you can jump that hurdle and get instead of 10% of your staff if you could get, let's say, 70% or 80% of your staff bought into. This is a good thing for us to bring up with our patients. You're gonna have great results, great results. But you have to limit what you're doing.

You know, for your listeners are interested. Pick up the client retention matrix. We have a lot of tools and ideas and suggestions on how to how to integrate that into an organization. That's so, that's what I see in B2C, like some overarching trends.

Stewart Gandolf 32:21

Let me add a couple of quick thoughts to that. So, the one of the things that we see is constantly is the phones. And so that is like the number one issue that will limit a marketing campaign success. I can drive thousands of inquiries to a business if they can't answer their damn phone. Nothing's gonna happen on the back end. So, looking at that depending on the kind of business it is, you know, like the one of the big challenges, and, Chris, you nailed it like almost everybody in healthcare, is like thinks sales is an anathema. They hate even the word, let alone doing it. But someone's got to figure out, okay, what is the process for handling an inbound inquiry? And this is something we talk about a lot, and I won't go into detail today. But that's an absolutely vital, vital, vital thing is okay.

For example, you know, how do we get? And I've got webinars and different things on this for people that are interested in this as well.

But the how do I get? You know? Who do I send those inbound inquiries to. Is it a call center? Is it somebody? Do I have new inquiries versus an administrative call? You know? How do I hire for that. How do I train for that? You know all of those things? But if the person on the phone views himself as an appointment setter and this isn't going to go well, if they view themselves as a collection person—It's gonna go worse. So, it's like finding a way to make sure you're getting those inbound inquiries handled.

And you're not to use the word sold if you don't want to, but they're selling an appointment, especially when you get into things like bariatric surgery or infertility. Where there's a cash component, it's a whole different game, and you just have to recognize that's a vital thing, and you must deal with that in training, too, I'm sure.

Chris Jennings 33:55

I think you know, if you can get your team bought into. Look, we're spending money to help a community that needs our help. And so, if you get somebody to finally call in about bariatric surgery. And yeah, we want to treat them really well. That call is super important to us, and we, when they're ready at that moment to finally take some action on their situation. We want to do everything that we can to help them take that action to help themselves.

And if that's kind of the mindset of the team like, so, cause I think you have to come at it from the psychology of like. Why, it would matter to your team, and then to how they go about the mechanics of that really matter.

And so, when I talked earlier in our in our discussion today about having a playbook, so your playbook has to feel authentic, it has to. It has to highlight the desire to serve the audience that you're serving versus convert people and stuff like that right?

Stewart Gandolf 35:01

Yeah. For sure.

It's funny, too, because we did a couple of videos for Invisalign years ago.

One was handling the from the patient inquiry, how do you get them in the office? Then how do you greet them? Then? How do you present treatment for Invisalign? And how do you close it all in a seamless, like non-scary way. And then the second one we did was for the hygienist in a general practice. How do they talk about Invisalign in a way that doesn't feel scary. And those are just two examples of those are systems that had to be thought through. And how do we do this and communicate in a way

also want to say something that you brought up, that I giggle about a lot giggle, maybe not the right word. But you know, I think about like in the world of the practices. And this is something they've been doing in hospitals for years, and they're doing it in practices, more especially multilocation, you know, especially businesses.

They have somebody who's not B2C, they have like well, on the B2C side. They have treatment coordinators and the good ones. They have no problem selling cases, but they also sometimes have physician liaisons whose jobs are to go out and build doctor referrals kind of like a drug rep does. But in both cases I noticed those people often

feel like they're the fish out of water culturally with the rest of the office. I don't know if you've ever seen that, but it's like they're in sales, and everybody looks down their nose at them.

Chris Jennings 36:22

Yeah. And to me, like sales is a team sport. So, if they're not all approaching it as a team and working in concert with each other, because I was telling those groups like just dropping off coffee mugs and cookies in and of itself is not enough to make a difference to make an impact. But be being able to have an authentic conversation with those referring doctors’ offices in a meaningful conversation. And you know, if you feel it, say it, say nicely and safer, how it's gonna impact them, not how it's gonna impact you. So that you are getting to the real issue, because, unfortunately, there's thousands of those reps across the country dropping off cookies. And that team. Not only are they not making an impact, they don't feel like they're making an impact. The company's wondering should we be paying them any money or not? And then the rest of the team doesn't respect what they're doing. So, you're just not getting the impact that you could if we were really working as a as a team.

Stewart Gandolf 37:27

That engagement is everything. And so, let's talk about the B2B side, which we're kind of jumping a little bit here, and B2B and healthcare could be reaching out to referring physicians. It could be the hospital administrators. It could be the practice, CEOs. It could be to lots of different people, right it could be, you know, an OEM manufacturer selling upstream or downstream, or whatever so like. What are some of the things you've learned about working in healthcare and including people I've referred you to.

lest you forget so like, what have you learned there.

Chris Jennings 37:59

Well, here's the thing. Look, it's a big industry, right? So. And there's a lot of people doing it. So, what I've noticed is a common trend where sales teams basically get devalued is that it's my proposal versus in the sea of other proposals. And if that's really all it is, and you don't like. So, people talk a lot about building relationships. But I don't know if they know what that means.

And you know, if I'm really in a relationship with you. And you tell me as a

you know, let's say you work in a big pharma company and you're a product manager, and you're struggling with your numbers are off, and you're about to go off formulary, or whatever the, those are real issues that matter to you as a person, and if you have some tools to help them, I have to take an active interest, even if it means telling you like the way you're spending money isn't right.

And even if it means telling you like, hey, some of the decisions you made in the past. Probably you're probably burning some money and getting real with people. Because when you're calling in an industry that spends a lot of money. So, listen, healthcare. There's a lot of money spent. So, there's money to be had. So, you get a lot of different companies going after this money. What ends up happening is if you become a number

or you're, you're just going through the motions. You're never gonna stand out because there's way too many people calling on that same person.

So, you have to really be good at making a unique connection with every customer. And and when I talked before about being authentic. If you make a unique connection, and then you just stick to your process, right? I was coaching a team earlier last year. I was at a meeting in Jersey. Right? Imagine that for related to Big Pharma.

And this goes back. It's part of the referral trail that you and I started with Stephen Wolf years ago, right.

Stewart Gandolf 40:04

Oh, yeah.

Chris Jennings 40:05

But it's a lasting one, that's you know. It's taken all. I just followed the course.

and I've been coaching this team. But what I found out in the meeting was none of them we're diligent about setting up next steps.

They were all.

Stewart Gandolf 40:22

Let me ask you what was the average salary of these people you're talking about?

Chris Jennings 40:25

Somewhere between, probably a buck 50 to 450 right.

Stewart Gandolf 41:03

$100,000 and you’re not setting next up call?!

Chris Jennings 40:25

You're making 300,000. You're not saying the next step.

and it's because, like they, they're tiptoeing around. And if the buyer says, Well, call me, I'm just collecting numbers right now, call me in a month like dude. You gotta stick to your system, get into your playbook, follow the system, follow your playbook, become a student of the game, and it will pay back some dividends for you.

Stewart Gandolf 41:03

If I was a salesperson, and that was my job, and I was making that level of money, and I admitted publicly that wasn't taking next steps, I would be just embarrassed to show back up to work the next day. That's like that's tough. That's tough.

Chris Jennings 41:16

But Stewart, like you and I, you know, we're serious about this. We've always had a seriousness. We've always been students of the game.

Stewart Gandolf 41:25

Yeah, for sure.

Chris Jennings 41:26

What percentage of people in sales roles are truly self-reflective students of the game, and it matters to them to execute as they know they should execute.

It's a small percentage. And then the other thing is, you know, they're the head trash sneaks in. Well, oh, they've always been responsive, and I'm sure they'll get back to me. We hit it off, and you know they don't set a next step, and it's it seems like I've been coaching this for years right? Three decades.

Three solid decades of coaching this, and I and I've been coaching that team for a year, and I'm like I was—I was shocked. And I told the leader, I'm like dude. I can't believe that these guys are not consistently setting up next steps. Why, what's going on?

And some of it is you know, with, because you're paying. You're paying somebody 300 grand. You think they got it together, and they don't always have it together.

Stewart Gandolf 42:22

So, the one thing you mentioned there, too, is student of the game, and I think that is the number one thing, and you know again I have pretty broad scope. I'm not doing, you know, sales my job as CEO. But I look at the student of the game. Whatever you do is like the key factor. When I'm interviewing people, like when I talk to, you know, for example, paid search people or paid social or SEO. The first question, or one of the first questions is, what are you reading? What do you? What blogs are you watching? How are you keeping up your skills, you know, like, what do you do for continuing ad?

And it's like, you know, every position we have, like, you know, design writing art. But you know, the funny thing is marketing. Most people don't open a book after college, I mean, they really don't like, or, you know, like they're just not naturally curious and so like I don't know why, you mentioned earlier. It's like I, you know, a lot of people think lowly of sales. I respect. Sales is like, you know, a discipline just like anything else. We

and I feel like, if you're serious about this, how would you not be committed to this? And I feel like it's probably because, you know, like one of the challenges with both sales and marketing is anybody can do it. I mean, everybody can call themselves actually sorry. Anybody can call themselves a marketer. Anybody can call themselves a salesperson, I mean, everybody could do it. But everybody can call themselves that, you know, I really wish there was licensure for marketing. By the way, Chris, in my world, because it would like take away 90% of my competition right? Like that's.

Chris Jennings 43:44

Yeah, for sure.

Stewart Gandolf 43:45

Like, there's just a lot of people out there that just sort of go through the motions. But when you're really good and you have a really good sales system. It's like, it's, it just changes everything. And I think also one of the challenges that I have and some of the people my team have is, you know, after a while you have it so good you're unconsciously competent. Even then you have to remind yourself of the basics like.

Oh, God, yeah, Rookie, mistake. Okay, I didn't set that appointment. I feel like a schmuck, but it's like you don't do it the next time. Right? You don't make it a habit. You just have to come back to being able to do it. So that's really funny. I just think it's probably heartening for some of our listeners like, Okay, it's not just me. These things are, you know, everywhere. So, Chris, as we wrap up here.

I would love, like, I don't know a handful of, you know. Like if these levers, if you can pull these levers, you're going to be far better off than you were when you know

before you listen to this podcast, so I don't know if that means in recruiting and managing and compensating, but like as a sales leader, what are some of the biggest levers you can pull that'll eventually bring you results?

Chris Jennings 44:54

Yeah. Well, just assume that all the people who work for you are human beings. As human beings. They're fallible, they make mistakes, they need to grow.

The question you need to be asking yourself is, what resources do I provide for the team that reports to me to help them continue on their growth journey.

And do they value coaching and feedback? And you have a coach that's around to give them feedback, and it can't always be you as the boss, because your people want to please you. Right? So, your people, naturally, because they want to please you, and they want they want to look good in front of you. They're going to tell you what they want you to hear.

But they but so you'd probably need an independent coach at some level periodically to give them real feedback. And I, like me personally. You're just talking about that question. I don't know how many books I have open and audible right now, but I probably have a half a dozen of them going right now, coming from different areas of business, spiritual, personal development.

And I'm always investing in myself. And as a as a leader of a team, though if you can build a development program where people know they come in and they're going to win a championship because they're playing on your team. It starts to draw an even better class of people to you.

And then the people start on the team, start coaching each other. It just that has to be a cultural decision that you made like we're going to be about self-improvement and continuously, getting better. But for the sales leaders, if you pick up our conversations made easy, and the creating a playbook for growing your connections with customers

like we have 10 systems to follow. If you follow those 10 systems you're gonna build, you're gonna build a phenomenal team. Things like increasing go live, things like making those special teams players operate more efficiently and working as a team, field rides and recording phone calls, and recording zoom calls to get feedback on how you're doing. All of those levers. If you pull all those levers, you're gonna build quite an organization.

Stewart Gandolf 47:21

Yeah, and I'll just give a quick plug for Chris as a friend and colleague, you know, going back to what he said, I think the biggest thing about Chris's organization that I mean I met Chris. Chris is more of a sales trainer which was valuable, but it's like I don't. I don't need training. I need, like, you know, a system. And I think that's what's really exciting, because I think you're right. I don't think, even if you're a sales VP, it's sometimes at some point I don't know. It becomes the same old story, and they just sort of don't believe their sales manager anymore, or their CEO, and having a coach that comes in from the outside and cut through the crap really quickly, and come back and say.

You know of your 5 people. I'm concerned about these 2, this person over here you need to enable. And this person over here just get out of their way like those are that's really valuable feedback. And it's really easy in an organization to get caught up. And you look like you want to say something on that.

Chris Jennings 48:11

Yeah, well, just and as a sales leader, even if you're a great sales coach, you're gonna get overwhelmed and run out of bandwidth to do all the things with your team that you want to do. So, what I've seen over the years is the most successful sales leaders, leverage, whatever energy we bring to the table to help them with their team, so that you can continue to work on the highest priorities that are in front of you

broadly through your organization. And I think, just like any leader gets bogged down in the day to day details. Yeah, it's gonna be hard for you to get the bigger picture items taken care of. So, getting help is always gonna help.

Stewart Gandolf 48:53

Yeah, that's great. So, Chris, it's been fun knowing all these years and working with Anthony Mayo on our as our liaison for the day to day stuff that we work with our team. I think. If you're, you know, certainly could pick up Chris's books. I'm not getting commission from Chris, though I should.

Chris Jennings 49:12

Jeff Bezos gets the significant commission. The rest of us are just standing in line behind him.

Stewart Gandolf 49:18

Yeah, I'm joking. This is just from the heart, I think that you know, for Chris's. If you're really trying to figure out where to get your footing in on the sales stuff in a broader area. I feel comfortable referring, Chris. He and his team have done a great job, and I know them well, and I think philosophically, the biggest thing is just philosophically going back to slobbering puppies, you know. Never in my life did I want to be a salesperson. My father, by the way, was owned an auto dealership. He was the ultimate salesman. I'm like sales. No, no, no, no!

But I recognize now that it's not so much sales, just, you know, good human communication skills. And, you know, interacting with individuals authentically, honestly, without being the slobbering puppy without begging which oh, my God! And any of the doctors I've worked with over the years like I don't want to beg anybody. It's like you shouldn't. Who said you should. What you know. That's somebody else's playbook that's from the thirties or something that's not from today. So anyway, Chris, it's been a pleasure.

Chris Jennings 50:15


Okay. thank you, Stewart. I so appreciate our friendship, our professional relationship that we've had over the years. And it's been a blast for me personally to just

kind of do a little bit of a walk down Memory Lane today, and as well as pass on some messages that you and I have honed over the years, and hopefully your listening audience is taking some notes and putting some of this to good work, and they're passing it on to others around them, and cementing the learning for themselves. So, it's been it’s been a true joy. Thank you.

Stewart Gandolf 50:52

Awesome.