Breaking the Silence Around Women’s Health: Marketing Through Sensitive Topics

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

Hello, everyone. Welcome to our podcast again. And today I have Debbie Doggett, and Debbie is somebody I met at a med tech conference last or medical device marketing conference last August, I think, or well, somewhere anyway.

And the power of networking, and it's really a fun story. She was, I think she was on a panel last year, I just happened to reach out to her on LinkedIn and said, Hey, just checking in to say hi.

And she's like, Oh, my God. So tell our audience what happened next.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

Well, I've been following you for a burger. I feel like I think I really started to follow you in earnest back in the early thoughts, because I was doing cooperative marketing, and we were doing a lot of practice building or

from different technologies for OBGYNs. And I was very excited about what to do to help practices market themselves and you were the voice that I kept seeing.

So.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

That's awesome. Well, thank you. That's such a big compliment. was really fun. feel like I've known you the moment we met.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

Well, what they call it paracepto relationship or whatever, it's like, I've known you for ever so. That's good enough.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

Yeah, no, it's exciting. I'm glad to have you as a new friend. I had to get to know you better.

And now we're just talking about your Star Wars aficionados. So now, like, now you are the master.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

That's what I don't know.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

I do my It's funny. I was just on vacation. We're not done. We shouldn't start from here. We were at our vacation rental in Palm Springs.

My daughters are apologizing now. one of them want to go back there because we haven't been there for a while and she hasn't been there and it rained the whole time and I was so sad and you know what I did I actually watched the Wars movies and I just wanted to I felt like some escapism.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

What order did you watch them in Stuart? What order?

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

So I I mean I just made it for the first trilogy so I started with four five and six or one two three three.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

much as there's a big controversy out there as to when you introduce Star Wars to new people kids whatever do you do it in you know chronological order or do you do it in the order in which things were released so that you get the information at the same with the same aha's that everybody else does right right so that's a good point I never even thought of that because you're right otherwise it'd be kind of a let down like the big reveal there's nothing right and so that's actually the really fun thing is so on Disney

plus when you go to the Star Wars channel, the sub-channel, they have it in both order of chronology. So if you're curious about what movie comes before, like solo comes before episode two or whatever, you can see that or you can watch it in the order in which it was released.

And I'm a fan of that. As well as that, I could slog through Clone Wars, the animated series, which was a slog.

It was really hard to get through. It's just, there's a lot of detail in there. It's really helpful because I love all the live action stuff and a lot of it calls back to that.

So now I got to go back and watch some of the other animated stuff and, you know, there's Bad Batch, which is really funny.

It's kind of like a team for in Star Wars land and, you know, there's just, if there's just been endless, you know, place to spend your time, but you know what it's,

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

You are a fan. I got to give you credit.

That's amazing. That's great.

So, Debbie, that's so Star Wars memorabilia side. Although I got to tell you actually before you leave that.

Um, so Star Wars one was great. And I, you know, saw Star Wars four slash one. Um, but I've seen him so long ago.

mean, I just, you know, I've seen the first episode, fourth episode, a bunch of other ones I haven't really seen for a long time.

not as big a fan as you are. So two was really good. second one, the second one in order.

The third one, I still don't mind. One of the teddy bears.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

I just don't get it. Most experts agree that episode five is really the quintessential great Star Wars episode. of episode six is great.

It's really a continuation on that arc. It's things start to fall apart when they land an end door. And you can imagine that.

So remember, Lucas got all of his power because he said he kept his own licensing rights, which was epic at the time.

Nobody did that. And so he was thinking in terms of I need, I'm getting more kids in this than I imagined.

So I better make sure that I have kid-friendly toys that the parents want to buy, right? So that's largely one of the reasons I saw experts believe that that may be a reason why the Ewoks were on the cuddlier side of things.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

So yeah. right, there you go. So let's move from Ewoks to another sensitive topic. So today we're going to talk about sensitive health care topics and then for people who read our blog and listen to our podcast.

podcast, we cover this once in a while. And my most recent article or blog post about this was inspired by my wife.

And my wife was with a new trainer and he's like, so what can I help you with? she goes, menopause.

And I just when she told me this story, I just laughed because when I was growing up, that would never ever have happened.

Nobody would just, you know, say the word menopause out loud. And I'm saying, like, honey, do you run up and write about that?

like, no, go ahead. So, you know, I'm intrigued by this idea of how do we deal with sensitive health care topics.

And so Debbie, tell me, before, as we get started here, beyond the Star Wars stuff, tell me about your current job and a little bit about yourself.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

And then we'll jump dive straight into this topic. Sure. So, I am currently the head of commercial for a term medical.

And what that means is that I have marketing, sales, development, and or market access all under my umbrella of controls.

So, it means that in order for us to make sales, we have to have the best possible messages which we get from marketing and the challenge is that Materna makes vaginal dilators, expanding vaginal dilators, and there is a scarier I'll go bleep you out somewhere.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

We can't say that word on this.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

This is a kid show. All right, this is not a kid show. There's no e-walked hair.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

So, we have two expanding vaginal dilators.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

One that's used at any time in her life and that can be because of menopause. Typically, women encounter something called vaginal muscle tightness and there's related painful.

We've just said two scary words of and in the same sentence.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

Oh, no.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

If that nobody has that I can talk about that every day from a little, you know, as they say, Cultured a culturally to that so I have no problem, but it does sort of stop people Are you even believe it's being a health care marketing agency we're talking about, you know erectile dysfunction and roids today, but it's like it's part of the game It is easier to talk about men's erectile dysfunction.

Do you realize that in 1994 is when was released to the market and Bob Dole was posted and how many decades are we now past that and women do not have health equity, know, God help us, DEI But so we wait the turd does have the expanding vaginal dilators used for vaginal muscle tightness and related painful and the technical terms for that are vaginismus

But we also are founded from a, that was originally our side project. original project was a expanding vaginal dilator used to expand the during childbirth in the magic hour before she pushes the baby out.

So what that means is that it's not a cervical dilator, it's a vaginal dilator. And so we're in a clinical study for that and going to finish that clinical workout very soon to submit to the FDA for clearance.

So it's a very unique way to approach vaginal muscles. In one case, we're trying to loosen something that's too tight and in the other case, we're trying to actually prevent an injury to the muscle, fall for bone, interior so and that would prevent pelvic organ prolapse in the long term, which

About 50% of women, when they get to 65, dealing with pelvic organ prolapse. And that is all your organs falling out.

So you're uterus, you're , you're literally tucked down on itself and it starts to fall out. can see it externally.

bladder and your rectum can also fall out. right? to be a lady when you're in the third quarter of your life, fourth quarter of your life.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

Dee, hold on. You think this is fun, kids wait till later?

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

And you know, it's funny because I have it. these babies and want you to have them vaginally. And don't worry, you'll have your falling out at some point in the future.

having with a that's not in her right place. Oh dear, said and again in the same sentence.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

So that's the, and it's funny because I wasn't even familiar with it. with for labs until recently, our friends of friends and family members and so forth have that.

So being, you know, I guess male, it just wasn't on top of my radar. it's like, wow, that's really a scary thing.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

Well, menopause, you know, that's the thing is that menopause now that Hallie Berry has screened it from the rooftops and Oprah is doing something about it.

She's very good at getting on all the sensitive topics, you know, early on, but once Oprah covers it, then it makes it a lot easier to talk about.

And so women experience menopause symptoms typically take not only the hot flashes and everything happening on in their body, but it shows up in the bedroom with vaginal muscle tightness.

And she can't have . And, you know, they'll have all these guys and say, what do you mean? doesn't don't I want it to be tight?

Not just a shut door, buddy.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

Yeah, no. You have this topic. You have talked about this topic before. So let's talk about, know, the, the, so yeah, the giants and are pretty sensitive, we would agree still in this world.

And, you know, let's talk about the meta guidelines and Google and Bing, because this is a topic that you're dealing with right now, it sounds like.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

Oh, yeah. So back in February, just just a month ago, um, meta came out with some new guidelines about HIPAA related things for those of us in healthcare, you know, that's about privacy around personal health information, sensitive topics, they had a list and of the 11 topics, expanding vaginal dilators to treat, to treat vaginal muscle tightness and painful , hit three of the 11 categories.

So we were essentially excluded from being able to use their recharging tools, even though they're invisible to us in terms of how they do it.

We're not allowed to use them anymore. So it meant that money we were spending in Facebook and Instagram was not converting and our return on ad spend or row as was, you know, pathetic.

So that was really sad and we stopped spending on meta. In Google, we have to be very careful as well about how we talk about things and being actually, interestingly, us fill out some special forms a few months ago to validate that we are in fact in medical device, which we are, the FDA has reviewed our data several times and has cleared us not only for sale, but we did a special study so that we could be over the counter in that study.

Well, we'll bookmark that because that one's another point of frustration for us. So yeah, it's been really tough to do any marketing digitally, which is the way marketing is done these days using the biggest platforms on the planet, right?

And we're a U.S. based company. company, we sell just in the US, and to have these censorship policies in place just makes it really, really challenging.

And we're a small company, we're a startup, right? And that means that our lack of spending in these, I'm not going to, that it's like nothing to these companies.

So they don't care. They don't care.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

Yeah, it's a challenge to they don't care that women are suffering.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

And that's the bummer.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

Yeah, for sure. So, you know, we talked a little bit about how it impacts women.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

Tell us, tell me a little bit more about that.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

Like you mentioned here about, you know, the percentage of women that have this, you know, the other sort of side effects.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

Right. So about 17% of women at some point in her life will encounter this bachelor muscle tightness. And it can happen from menopause, as we discussed, can also happen after childbirth postpartum.

because if she's had a traumatic birth physically or psychologically or both, then there's also cancer survivors and it's not just the bikini cancers.

Any cancer treatment, whether it's radiation or chemo or anything, can change the chemistries of your body and increases vaginal dryness and this unconscious vaginal muscle tightening or punching will happen.

Also, sadly, assault survivors are also affected by this and you can understand why. And there are a group of other conditions.

Some women who have know that they're going to get a yeast infection and so they actually don't want to have like there's this whole like, oh, if I have , it's going to be painful because of the yeast infection.

So there's like that dynamic. And then of course, there's a few things that are what we call primary vaginismus and those are people who have anatomical issues that they might be addressing.

So not everyone three body forms exactly the way the anatomy tips books show that's probably the best way to put it.

So there's again even just talking about the closet of this vaginal muscle tightness can run us very quickly into sensitive topic areas.

So you were saying that a pause was something that people didn't talk about. Well don't you remember there was that infamous scene in St.

Elle Spire where the woman's like whispering and then she whispers, right?

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

Yeah, I remember.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

Why did she get whispering? So I feel like he believes things too. So here's a woman she has a child she's dealing with you know all the postpartum things whether it's her first kid second third whatever and now she's gotten her clearance.

Oh you can go back to having and she's like what? That childhood experience was really hard for me and so

Oh my God, I can't even imagine doing that. But then you're also in this key moment where your relationship with your partner is so important.

Because you got to be a team when you're trying to be parents. know this. And being able to be intimately connected with somebody, that intimacy is important.

so how you define that, redefine that as you go throughout life, going through all these different phases and stages with all the circumstances.

You really, this is how it affects women's lives. And what here is where it really kind of bottom lines in the health care system.

When a woman goes to go and have her public exam, if she is experiencing this unconscious muscle punching on penetration of a speculum, she is now not able to access standard, preventative health care.

that's a problem. That's a big problem. You wonder why some women ignore going to the doctor? certain percentage of them are ignoring it because that's the issue.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

So that means she's not getting her cancer screenings.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

She's not being checked for ovarian cancer and bladder cancer and not so much bladder cancer but uterine cancer, cervical cancer, you know, STDs if that's an issue, pelvic inflammatory disease, getting an IUD, right?

can't have that. You can't go and have even a coloscopy. So in case you didn't know this, cervical cancer is now really much more detectable.

They screen you using the blood test and if they find that you have an HPV positive, then they keep an eye on you and coloscopy is the next best thing.

those are done in the office. If you can't get a speculum in there for history go to do a toposcopy.

Okay, here we go. Things are not happening the way they're supposed to.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

So certainly, yeah, it sounds like I mean there's obviously and it's even deeper than I expected in terms of the consequences for women and obviously we're trying to do a lot better job of women's healthcare than we've done in the past.

So yeah, it's very educational for me. I'm learning a lot today. So talk about the, you know, you've talked about some of the challenges your companies face.

other kinds of things are you dealing with? And I do want to come back to action before you get to that.

want to finish the loop on Facebook. That is really tough because that's a, you know, in today's world, Facebook and Instagram are a major marketing channel to be precluded from that.

It's tough. And, you know, there are Facebook reps out there that are hard to get to and particularly you're not spending a lot.

And so that's a, that's can be a battle. So, to hear that. there's other, you know, for example, you mentioned HIPAA too, there's some big providers of mental health services that got into trouble over HIPAA and also FDA, and they get precluded from Facebook.

That's a problem. It's like, that's a huge channel. But I'm curious, what are their, you know, challenges if you guys face, because this is, it must be exhausting.

mean, it's like you're here to be happy.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

is. So, originally, vaginal dilators were static, and so you've got a set of, with my CEO calls it, the bag of .

So, it's just these rigid, plastic things that you take the first one, you put the first one in, take it out and put the next one in.

So, those were considered well in this product forever. So, you just registered with the FDA that you had one, which is what we did with our vaginal dilator, the fact that it was expanding didn't make a difference.

But everybody was making all these claims, and so they decided to come after us, and they said, um, hey, you know, you're really a medical device.

You know, thanks for any component. Maybe that's why. but triggered it. Um, but so we said, okay, we'll submit.

Well, so then we became a prescribed device. Okay. Well, that's okay. Now we're a medical device that's for sure.

That's fine. I've dealt with that before. But before I got to Matera, they had actually done a study with the FDA's blessing to do what's called self selection.

Now get this, a woman had to read a description of this vaginal muscle tightness, decide on the website that in fact she was experiencing this problem, like she could read a description and understand that that was for her.

And then she could, uh, cooperate or coordinate that with her clinician. And surprisingly, women could figure it out. We could publish that in the journal, right?

Um, it's really not that hard to figure out, but it's hard for women to talk about, right? Because it's sensitive for her and so the clinician doesn't see it until they go to try to do that pelvic exam and the woman just goes, you know what I mean?

So, but anyway, that was one little hurdle we went through and the ends, it was great. We got our over-the-counter clearance and we're in a medical work officially enough to get cleared, medical device for over-the-counter sale.

That's very unusual. I have never worked on a product like this before in all my careers, so we run an e-commerce business on HelloMilly.com and we get to sell directly to patients, which is fantastic.

I've never known from a marketers perspective, right? We do something over here, we see the sales over here, right?

never get that kind of perfect with its when it's a procedure, right? So, this is kind of the really fun part.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

Wow, that's, uh, It interesting, yeah, thinking about that, okay, don't need a prescription, but you need to be FDA-cleared.

So those two are typically this thing.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

And clinicians, you know, they can recommend, which is wonderful because there's so many people getting into menopause game these days and therapy, and you don't have to be an MD, a PhD or whatever, you can go and do any sort of class to become a coach even.

And you can do telemedicine appointments and have clients paying you out of pocket. And if you have developed an expertise in this area, you're happily able to recommend your product, which is lovely, right?

So we're not hindered by that, but not a lot of people get to do it that way, so it's weird.

And so that's been a big hurdle for us to just, like, oh, I don't have to write a prescription for this, I just need to recommend it, okay.

like I recommend vitamins.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

You've worked with a doctor side for a large part of your career and it's really hard to get healthcare professionals to focus on anything.

They've got a million things to do and you'd really prefer that was the height of their day. Every day they walked in like, what can I recommend and getting the brain space and we do webinars and books and work with clients I can't think of any audience that's harder than health care professional and especially something they're not excited about talking about anyway it's got to be challenge for sure so I can see while you're doing the consumer drag side based on the doctor side it's going to be tough.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

Well I would say that based on the work I know you do you are always telling your customers to come up with unique value propositions as your marketplace.

Right yeah if there was ever time to have a unique big value prop in the marketplace, it's this. The willingness to pass conversation, the willingness to normalize it, the willingness to have women, women think that they're alone, that nobody else has this problem, because nobody talks about it, none of their friends talk about it, their mothers don't, nobody talks about this.

And so as a result, it, and so that kind of leads into another one, which is our second product, and that's the expanding vaginal dilator that will be used in So remember, I said that the design of the device is to prevent an injury, it's called a levator anti-muscle abulsion, or tearing off of the bone, so muscle off the bone.

This isn't the external tearing that you would have, like an episiotomy and sowing back up after the baby's born, this is the muscle inside.

And so, remember, I mentioned that the consequences of that is all of that stuff falling out, which is your falls out, your bladder falls, your rectum falls, you know, like everything's just falling out inside.

it out, right? It's very strange looking. This is not what you want to see on the internet, but you can find pictures of it.

That's another topic. People don't talk about women as they age. They don't talk about the fact that they don't really connect the fact that this baby that I pushed out 30, 40, 50, 60 years ago ripped me to shreds externally and internally.

And so they don't and the other guy says, well, we're going to have to go in there and surgically remove things and tack things up and, you know, basically rebuild your abdominal, your lower abdomen so that you can function as a normal person again.

My grandmother had it done when she ended up with a hysterectomy for choosing our 80s, which is actually quite rare.

people have this happen sooner, but she would frequently, we'd be walking around, she lived to be 94. And we'd walk her, she was like, I gotta sit,

her medic and she'd sit down because her uterus was falling out. Her was inverting itself. So she ended up with a hysterectomy and she did the recticeal and cysticeal and got everything put back together again, which was great for her and it meant that she could move much more comfortably in another 10 years, which is lovely.

So I was glad for her, but I do remember the story. My dad was really, really hard to go with him and I absolutely certain that that's where it started.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

So if you had a magic wand, how would you fix this?

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

Well, so turns out what I love is for women during childbirth to have access to all the best technology.

We know that we're one of the lowest ranking countries in terms of complexities and comorbidities that happen during childbirth and it's not because we don't spend the most money, it's because there's no innovation.

And so if I had my druthers, I would want innovation to be paid for. The problem right now is labor and delivery is the lowest paid service.

So if you think about a hospital, they have cardiac and they've got neurosurgery and orthopedics and all these ER and all these big.

These things make money for hospitals, right? Sadly, OBGYN and labor and delivery in particular is a loss of later.

It loses money. And so across the U.S., not just in rural areas, by the way, but even in urban and suburban areas, labor and delivery service is being closed because the hospitals can't afford to keep open anymore.

And so if I had a magic wand, I would want those things to be fixed. If there's more innovation in birth, we have the opportunity for improved payments.

Like if childbirth was paid for, or at the same levels of things like cardiovascular and other general surgery and other things that have innovation on a year to 18 month cycle, but we wouldn't have this problem, right?

But trying to explain that using advice will prevent some other situations from happening and changes some things in, changes some risk factors that's stuff that's in our clinical study that was published last year.

It's a hard, it's another road uphill that we have to push and it's really, it's a challenge, right? But we really want birth being valued in the same way that men's health is valued, like if you have a prostate problem, a number of treatment options you have, whether it's cancer is not, is almost unfathomable relative to...

the options women have. Like we're still in the dark ages for women's health care. So, you know, it's that and it's also investment.

People have, investors have to be willing to take risks, right? medical devices take a while because of the FDA and because of reimbursement.

So it's not, we're not going to find a unicorn. We're not the next Facebook or Instagram or TikTok or whatever, but it changes people's lives.

It's like the human part of living, right? investment is important and that means that money has to be put into women's health in the same.

Just, I would love it to be in the same equal to what's put in for themselves. If there's a new process, anything, get funded.

No problem.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

Yep. So, the last, I have a couple questions. questions that we're almost out of time here, but yeah, we talked about HCPs and I'm curious, are OB-GINs a big part of your efforts?

you guys going out? Because it would seem like certainly OB-GINs are on both sides of this, right? Labor and delivery and they're certainly talking about and they're talking about, so do you have a big HCP effort?

Are you guys going more B2C or is it both?

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

Well, we do both, right? So in the milli-business for the expanding vaginal dilator with vibration, that is direct to consumer business and it's a health care professional business.

We do both and the fact that we have an expanding vaginal dilator that is using childbirth means that OB-GINs of the health care professionals, they're kind of top of the heap.

They're also the front line on the on the vaginistic side, like they're going to see it more. We just did a clinical study and I think it's more than 40% of the women see more than two health care professionals.

when they try deal with this problem. So it's really challenging. It's really challenging.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

Interesting. And then the other last question is, this is the kind of topic that I'm curious, you know, how much you're doing with organic social or with influencers, because these are the kinds of things that, you know, certainly lend itself while perhaps, I don't know, what has been your experience so far.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

Well, I would say there were early days in that, and I've talked to a couple of influencers who are not necessarily menopause.

They might be talking about menopause, they might be talking about when you last read menopause or other things, but the part, they're worried, like, how do I bring this up?

My audience. I'm talking about like, hot flashes and things, and like, I don't know how to talk about this.

I'm like, okay, I completely understand what you mean.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

I get it. So last question, any advice for that, know, or insights you have for people that have to market a sense of product, any other things that you think are, you know, like if I'd only known this when I started this journey, it would have been helpful.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

I think the issue is have to have all the channels open. So it's not just paid media, affiliate marketing is probably the best way to monetize SEO, right?

So if you're doing blog exchange with people or you find somebody who's willing to talk about things, or they are just naturally a group of people that are, they're a person who has magnetically attracted people to their blog because they are talking about and these issues, then you lean in with those folks and you can do affiliate marketing with them.

So it's not exactly influencer marketing, it's a little bit of a but, you know, a step sideways on that.

But it's still worthwhile. mean, and I think we have to have as many channels available as possible. Me, her where she is, if she finds out about us, you know, we want her to throw in our if she is, we want her to tell her friends for her something to talk about with her friends.

Maybe she becomes the catalyst because to have this conversation. We see this a lot in very conservative religious communities.

The vaginists can actually fire up because until the day you're married, you're supposed to not think about and then all of a sudden you're married and now you're supposed to think about .

And it's a little more challenging, more complicated for women than that. You can't just turn it on and off that easily, right?

You've been taught to be one way, your whole life, and conditioned, and then all of a sudden you're supposed to not be.

But you know, you never know. level up from other places. I think, again, the Metapause conversation happening right now is so helpful.

my God, so helpful. And cancer is not whispered anymore. You know, things, there's a lot of childbirth influencers now out there.

So I think that pregnancy and childbirth is probably gonna be a little easier for us because that's an easier topic to get.

It's not so sensitive, right? Because everybody wants people to have babies these days. not the hardest thing in the world.

But yeah. So, yeah, I think that's where we're at.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

Well, Debbie, thank you so much for joining me today. It was fun and what's the right word here? There's some puns, I guess, but it was a stimulating conversation.

It was just really something that I think I've always said, it's the puns always happen when we're talking about hemorrhoids with these things.

But so I've enjoyed it. I appreciate your time.

Debbie Donovan (Materna Medical)

Thank you.

Stewart Gandolf (Healthcare Success)

Thank you and we'll see you in the next one.